Head Gasket

tgal60a · #1 (**permalink**) 10-09-2004, 08:12 PM

Finally got around to starting the GTV after a partial restoration, anyhow when I looked at the exhaust side, I noticed oil leaking from the head gasket but only if the engine was revved. I did not notice any oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. I therefore did not get to drive it for fear of doing damage.

My question is, can I attempt to re-torque the head or am I forced to pull the head and do a complete job?

BTW this is a 1969 GTV series one with a 1750 and spica injection. I will post pictures when my car is complete.

Tony

**Roadtrip** · #2 (**permalink**) 10-09-2004, 08:21 PM

How much oil? Did it continue to leak even after the engine was at temperature. I'd go ahead and try to retorque, but don't expect success.

MichaelB · #3 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 05:15 AM

There have also recently been issues on other Alfa sites regarding Reinz head gaskets, it seems there are some current problems that need some sealant to be applied in certain areas. Are you using one of these gaskets?

Cheers

Michael Beattie

tgal60a · #4 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 08:18 AM

I wouldn't know what gasket was used as I purchased the car to restore. There is enough oil to make it evident to the eye. I did not bring it fully up to temperature as my intention was to put antifreeze in the system, I had drained the antifreeze prior to starting the restore, I was then at the point of bringing the car to temperature and bleeding the coolant system.

But, if a head gasket is needed than filling the coolant system is pointless.

116_Veloce · #5 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 09:47 AM

Experience shows that some sealant should be used at the front, but apart from that I've seen OE gaskets (i.e. Reinz) survive well over 15 years on Alfas (including mine) without problems, so I wouldn't rush to blame the gasket.

Should it come to that, use an OE gasket.

Shop manual indicates:

Stage 1 (cold) 72Nm or 53 lb ft
Stage 2 (hot) 75Nm or 55 lb ft
Stage 3 (cold) 77Nm or 57 lb ft

I would probably add 1-2% force to these figures.

**Roadtrip** · #6 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 09:48 AM

Tony - My 74 seeps a little oil from the middle left side when the engine is first started and the temperature is 50F or less. It seals itself up when the coolant temp starts to rise.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and put coolant in it and run the engine and see what happens after it's at running temp. Check the coolant for oil. If none, then retorque the next day when the engine is cold. If it's just a little nusiance seepage when first starting, maybe you can defer the head gasket for a while. To my mind, a little seepage when cold isn't good enough reason to pull the head. It will also give you time to discover anything else that may be not right with the engine that maybe could be fixed more easily with the head off.

classicalfas · #7 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 03:21 PM

The problem with the new Reinz gaskets if you look is that there is no gasket sealer around the rear drain holes. Unfortunately, water is being mixed with the oil on startup. It was discussed greatly on the Alfa Racing Digest. Peter.

tgal60a · #8 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 06:02 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions, I think that I will try John's suggestion and fill the cooling system and give the re-torque a shot. Failing that I will properly drain the collant for re-use later if not contaminated.

This brings up another question, the drain plug on the radiator has a stripped head, I will need to drill and remove. Where can I get a replacement plug, is it metric? Or will a reputable rad shop carry a replacement?

I am located in Toronto.

Tony

**Roadtrip** · #9 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 06:19 PM

Any radiator shop can solder in a new drain plug socket and plug.

**papajam** · #10 (**permalink**) 10-10-2004, 07:00 PM

If the rad plug isn't leaking, I'd leave it be and drain the coolant by removing the lower radiator hose.

tgal60a · #11 (**permalink**) 10-11-2004, 12:16 PM

I don't have a shop manual, can someone supply the torque pattern of the bolts that hold the head down? Should I first torque the head whem cold or start it up with coolant, then cool down and torque and use the shop manual 3 steps?

Tony.

Max Banks · #12 (**permalink**) 10-11-2004, 01:50 PM

As the head has already been torqued, it is only necessary to do it cold, I would do it to 60lbs/ft. Work in a diagonal pattern, one end then the other and vica versa, - NOT working from 1 end to the other.

We have heard whispers about reinz gaskets, but I will assure you they are the best you can buy and extremely good, so I want to lay that one to bed!!! As much as anything else we have found that problems arise from heads not being 100% true or torqued, there is nothing wrong with Reinz!!!

classicalfas · #13 (**permalink**) 10-11-2004, 05:14 PM

Max, If you have take a look at the old Reinz gaskets and take a look at your new one. There is no gasket sealer around the rear drain back holes. Makes a huge difference and a big gamble if you use one without. I will not use them until they are manufactured properly. Much discussion on the racing digest in the past. Take a look. Peter.

tgal60a · #14 (**permalink**) 10-12-2004, 12:20 PM

One last question, do I loosen one nut at a time apply oil to the nut/washer and then re-torque or just re-torque without loosening the nut?

Also I have seen differences in the recomended torque settings from the BB ranging fromk 57 ftlbs to as high as 65 ftlbs.

Are these bolts susceptible to stripping?

I plan to perform the re-torque tonight after work.

Tony.

Gary Williams · #15 (**permalink**) 10-12-2004, 01:15 PM

"We have heard whispers about reinz gaskets, but I will assure you they are the best you can buy and extremely good, so I want to lay that one to bed!!! "

Max: Sorry friend, but you're mistaken. That lovely pair of GTV's you now show on the Alfaholics website -- the Concorso Italiano photo you got from me -- both suffered from immediate Reinz failures. In both cases, we were unaware of the need to put sealant around the rear oil passages. In both cases, the heads were perfect, the installation was carefully done, and oil immediately leaked into the water.

After Richard and I bought new head gaskets and followed Jon Norman's installation process, our cars were fine. That was a time consuming and expensive lesson, however, and one I'm sure you would not wish on any of your other customers.

So, even if you disagree, it may well be best to advise caution. Put Ultra Gray (or is it Grey?) around the oil galleys. If anyone wants, I'll share a diagram of how it's done.

Also, many experienced engine builders now torque 2 liter heads to 65 pounds. That is, at least in part, due to the apparent need to put extra pressure on the Reinz gaskets. They don't seem to seal other places like they used to, like at the front cover. I'm told there may even have been an Alfa factory advisory about using higher torque values. I haven't seen it. Has anyone?

The PS on this Reinz discussion is that the manufacturer promised to look into the matter months ago and has yet to send us a conclusion, even after numerous prompts from several of us. Instead, our factory contact tells one of us one thing and others something else. Apparently he doesn't realize that e-mail makes it easy to share notes.

Gary Williams